Dear Readers:
Our blog post on men’s lack of emotional development by my colleague, the social therapist and psychiatrist Dr. Hugh Polk, sparked a very rich dialogue — thank you to those who commented. We’re following up by sharing some concrete work done in social therapy groups on how men and women relate to each other. Here’s Dr. Polk again:
Christine LaCerva, Director
Social Therapy Group
In social therapy groups, the therapist and the group members work to create an environment / conversation in which men and women together can work to develop emotionally. All of our groups are diverse — women and men, multiracial, gay and straight, different ages (adults, that is — we also have groups for children and families) and with people having a wide variety of emotional difficulties. The following is a rough transcript of a segment of the conversation that took place one evening. The names have been changed, of course, and I’ve called the therapist “Mark.” At the end I’ve added some comments of my own.
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Dave: I’d like to talk about something that’s going on at home. As you all know, I’m now partly retired. The problem is that now that I’m home a lot more, my wife and I have been fighting a lot. It seems like we’re fighting over nothing — half the time I don’t even get what’s bugging her.
Laura: Have you asked her?
Dave: Well, she says a lot of stuff but it doesn’t really make any sense to me.
Fran: Wait a second. What do mean she “says a lot of stuff but it doesn’t make any sense” to you? Maybe I’m jumping the gun here but that doesn’t sound right to me. What does she say and what don’t you get? Maybe we can help you to get it.
Dave: Okay. The other night I’m in the kitchen and Naomi has something on the stove and it’s boiling away. So I go over and I turn the flame down. And right away she cops an attitude. She says, “I’m cooking something, it needs to be on a high heat, why are you walking in here and turning down the heat without even asking me?”
Fran and Doris (simultaneously): What is it about what she said that doesn’t make any sense to you?
Dave: I was just trying to help! I thought it was dangerous — she was wearing this long scarf, she bends over the pot…I thought it might catch fire.
Fran: So you’re saying you were looking out for her.
Dave: Yeah…she gets distracted sometimes. She’s doing seven things at once and she can be a little careless. But she told me I was dissing her.
George: I have a similar situation with my girlfriend. Sometimes she gets mad at me out of the blue. I don’t even know what I did wrong, and suddenly I’m this bad guy.
Tina: Do you guys want help with any of this from us or do you just want us to sit here while you complain about the women in your lives?
Laura (to the social therapist): Mark, can you help? I don’t think we’re doing so great in this conversation.
Mark: It sounds to me like the women in the group are being reactive to the men. By that I mean that I think they’re pushing your buttons. Is that what’s going on?
Doris: Well, yes. I can’t stand it when the men act so dumb! How can it be that Dave doesn’t understand what Naomi said? What’s not to understand?
Mark: How come that makes you mad?
Jenny: It makes me mad too. Naomi is his wife, they live in the same house, she says some things to him that are perfectly understandable to me – and I don’t even know her! It seems to me that he doesn’t want to hear what she’s saying. But instead he says he doesn’t understand. I feel like he’s being dishonest, with her and with us.
Dave: Hold it. This is therapy, right? I thought you’re supposed to come in here and talk about your problems. That’s what I did. I’m saying I don’t understand what Naomi’s talking about when she says what she says to me. But now you’re telling me I’m doing it wrong, or maybe that I’m lying.
Eva (half-jokingly, half-seriously): This is one of the reasons I’m gay — so I don’t have to put up with this convenient way men have of ignoring you…at least I don’t have to put up with it in my own house. But I have to deal with it at my job all the time. And here it is again.
Mark: I think the women in the group are having a hard time accepting that when it comes to emotional conversation, Dave — like a lot of men — is dumb. Which is what he’s been telling us. I don’t mean that as a putdown. It’s a fact of life that many men, if not most, just aren’t very smart at listening, or talking, when the conversation turns to emotions. I think that women have a hard time accepting that…you get frustrated and angry instead. I’m not being critical of you for that. But holding on to your frustration and anger makes it virtually impossible for you to teach men how to do it better. So men stay dumb and you stay mad. My question to you is: Do you want to do something to change that?
There is a long silence.
Tina: I don’t know. It seems hopeless.
Fran: Yeah, it’s like a standoff between us and them.
Mark: I think you feel hopeless because that state of being angry all the time leaves you powerless to do anything else. As I see it, the situation isn’t hopeless. But I do think it’s difficult. To put my question another way: Do you want to work with me to learn to do something more powerful with your anger than simply holding on to it?
Shelley: Why do we always have to do all the work?
Cheryl: That sounds to me like you holding on to your anger. But Mark is asking us if we want to do something else. I’d like to, because I’m tired of being angry all the time. Being angry is work too, except it never gets you anywhere.
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And the conversation went on from there. In this short excerpt, we see the men and women in the group struggling to talk to each other. It’s not easy! Mark, the social therapist, doesn’t say anything for quite some time because he’s listening carefully to what the group is doing in this conversation. When he does speak, he tries to show the men and women in the group that the way they are talking, though quite commonplace and ordinary in our culture, is keeping them distant and angry at each other, both in the home and in the group. He does not blame them or attribute this to “mental illness,” but attempts to show how the societally scripted ways men and women talk to each other keep everyone locked into rigid (and alienated) roles.
Mark is attempting to point this out so that they might begin (if they choose) to create some new ways of speaking to each other, even if they don’t know how. Taking the risk to try to do things we don’t know how to do is key to creating new ways of relating to each other.
I’m eager to hear your thoughts. Let’s keep our conversation going!
Hugh Polk
You are a great writer. Please keep it up! I have nothing to add up and want to appreciate your words.
Thanks so much. It is the work of social therapy that inspires me to write.
well im a strong believer to find new ways to communicate between men and women.Our society gave us certain roles and rules to follow, but those are create to distinguish the genders. I think that in our era,we are more capable to understand between each other, and to control our feelings.However, there is a long way to go through, the most important is take the initiative.
During the session, did anyone point out the fundamental difference between the way men communicate and the way women communicate during Dave’s example with his wife Naomi?
Did it come up, the ways in which men perceive being helpful versus the way women perceive being helpful?
In that particular example, it seems to be lost on Dave that he should have “Hey hun, is there anything I can help with?” or even, “Did you mean for this flame to be up so high?”
I do find that women spend way too much time expecting men to “just get it” when they should articulate specifically what they need and what they want from their partners (or in any other dynamic), but I’m curious as to whether there was actually any discussion of the core communication differences between men and women.
As a man, I would like to say that we are better when woman decide to push us and not stay distant from each other. Not that I like this statement “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer”, I think that statement implies what hugh is saying — when you feel threatened, or reactive to something, the best thing to do is to get closer to it and work to understand what it is we are reacting to. And in the case of woman and men, the more work we do to get closer to each other, the better we can be at creating new scripts with each other.
I was just asked the other day myself, what do I get out of being a cynic. A friend told me cynicism doesn’t build anything – its not revolutionary.
Hugh,
I will be brief bc I just wrote a lengthier email and it was lost…ahhhh!
Simply put, I agree we have to want gladly to be better individuals and partners. Anything less is unsatisfying and limiting.
Shortly after writing last time I realized how my frustrations came up w/relating yo men and being related to. I am not in a role to play rescuer, so any burden is one I can only self attribute. Saying that last time was omnipotent and unfair. Therapy is useful but both parties have to know why you’re going and want more out of what they are already giving. That’s really what I want to convey. Thanks for responding. I look forward to more exchange on these topics again…
Thanks, Ashanda, for your thoughtful response. And good for you for supporting a man to get therapeutic help. It certainly can be hard work to teach men to be more open — more giving — emotionally. I’m not suggesting that a woman should do this work “for” the man in her life, or “to” him, while he sits around waiting to be “improved.” The ongoing work of creating richer, more caring, more intimate conversations/relationships/lives between men and women is something that they can only do together — and not just willingly but gladly. What I mean by this is that the man and the woman in a relationship both have to be down for doing it, even when it’s tough. And while I believe that women have a great deal to teach, and to give, to men, I also believe that men have something to teach and to give to women. In other words, women need to learn from men, too, emotionally and otherwise. In my experience, this is one of life’s great adventures — a sometimes scary, often strenuous, constantly surprising joy ride. So let’s keep talking!
Hugh
Incredibly helpful to remember that men can be emotionally dumb. I often have a reaction to a man who says something that I consider offensive because it’s clear (or it seems clear to me) that he hasn’t been listening very well. My general response is to be silent and to distance myself. But it’s clear that my silence doesn’t teach them anything nor grow my relationship with them.
I think this goes back to our first conversation about how men and women together create an environment of emotional exchange.
I have experienced the frustrations mentioned here over and over again in my personal relationships with men but I believe that it’s because we as women and men are cultivated very early in life, differently, in how we tune in to ourselves so that later we can tune in to others. Men are not encouraged to be silent with themselves long enough to learn how they feel. Instead they spend more time avoiding their feelings and discouraging their friends to “blow it off” too. Women can spend all day talking about how they feel on a plethora of issues from how they felt disrespected at home by their men to how they feel ignored and mistreated at work.
Men, instead, spend more time distracting themselves through other forms of engaging.
It is alot of work, as a woman to help a man tune into his emotions but I don’t mind, sometimes putting in the work because I’m tired of not seeing relationships thrive because we give up too soon, feeling helpless and hopeless.
I encouraged my last partner to go to therapy with me because I felt I couldn’t help him on my own. We found a male therapist that he was able to relate to and it took some of the burden off of me thinking I could “fix him” which I’m not here to do.
We all have to want to be better communicators first. Not only women, but men too.
Dear Michelle,
Thanks so much for your honest and open response. Both men and women are socialized into gender roles that damage and limit us emotionally and that make it very hard for men and women to talk, work and be together.
When I say that men are emotionally dumb, I don’t mean it as a criticism, rather I take it to be a statement of fact: we men (needless to say, I include myself in this) are socialized to not learn to talk emotionally or to talk about our feelings –in fact, we’re socialized that it is wrong and unmanly to do that. As little boys, we’re criticized and called names for doing it! So how could we not be dumb emotionally? It’s also true that this is not all of who men are. Men are also very smart about how the world works, are often more worldly than women. But women are also hurt by the ways they are socialized to be angry and reactive to men. Again, I ‘m not being critical — I just think we all have to deal with the reality that these gender roles keep us apart and mad at each other –unless we do something radically different to break out of them. If we’re going to grow, I think we need to be honest about it and learn not to perpetuate the endless blaming of each other that goes on.
If men are going to be more open emotionally, they’re going to have to learn how to do it from women, there being no one else around to learn it from. So women need to accept that they’re better at it, have been socialized to talk emotional talk more than men and women need to support each other to lead men in learning how to do it better — and this requires them to not indulge their feelings of anger towards men by yelling, or, as you so honestly say, by withdrawing from them in exasperation. Women’s exasperation is understandable, but the challenge for women is: are you going to create an environment where you can teach men how to do this better? It’s a big and hard challenge. It would be helpful in furthering this conversation if you could share more about how come you “stay silent and distance” yourself when men say something you feel critical of. Thanks again and let’s keep this conversation going!
Hugh
Hugh,
I think I stay silent and get distant for a number of reasons 1) I feel cynical, like nothing can change. 2)To be brutally honest, I think my silence and distance often feels like the only way I can get back at men for their sexism. I know that sounds awful, but truth is, I know men have a reaction to my silence and quite frankly it gives me a modicum of satisfaction. I feel this strongest in my relationships with men who are in authority who abuse their power and get support from both men and women. There is more to say, but I think I’ve said enough for now. LOL!
Hugh,
I just realized that in your response to my comment you asked that I expand upon my silence and distance.
First, I tend to get silent and distant because I feel cynical i.e. this man won’t change. I often have a conversation with a man, he acknowledges what I said, but then in the very next conversation will continuing going down the very road that I told him upsets me.
Second, and this is hard to admit, I almost feel like my silence and distance is the best weapon or response. I find that men have a distinct reaction when it is clear that I am keeping my distance. I feel conflicted about this because on the one hand I almost feel a sense of satisfaction. On the other hand, it makes me sad. This is especially true in relationships where the man has authority & clout and routinely uses both to be abusive. I try and try to provide leadership in our having a more developmental/decent conversation, but as you said in another post, men often take this as an attack and will fight back to shut it down. Very frustrating.
Dear Michelle,
Thanks for your open and honest comment. I understand why you, along with many men and women, feel cynical about the possibility of anything changing in how we talk to each other. I also understand your using silence and distance as a weapon in response to men.
But what about moving closer to men when they behave this way? If we don’t like the way someone is behaving or talking, what about saying something like, “I don’t feel good about the way we’re talking together and I’d like us to change it, to talk differently–are you open to doing that with me?”
Being distant is a performance–and we could do a different performance if we choose to. I’ve seen you do this “moving closer” performance quite beautifully and I think you and all of us could make much more use of that capacity we all have to choose the “getting closer” performance.
Let me know what you think.
Best,
Hugh
Thanks Hugh for your response. It’s definitely a developmental and building way to go vs. cynicism and silence. Definitely food for thought.
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